So how are y'all preparing for the Apocalypse?

[Facing]

We did have a right-wing (in the Canadian context) federal government under Stephen Harper for eight years until 2015. His last five years were the only time he had a majority in the Commons. That's when Canadians got a good look at what he wanted to do with the country and we threw him out.

Do you think that could happen in the states? Too much Trump leads to a Democratic majority and they finally get real health care and gun control? Maybe a minimum wage? I can't imagine that but I'm a fan of hope.

 

[RX-79G]

Do you think that could happen in the states? Too much Trump leads to a Democratic majority and they finally get real health care and gun control? Maybe a minimum wage? I can't imagine that but I'm a fan of hope.

Canadian gun control? That would be awesome! We have never been able to get FAMAE SG540s in the US, but you guys still import them for private sale.

 

[Fish Owl]

If you don't believe that democracy or representative government exists, then there's nothing to talk about.

I don't believe that in modern world it really represents the majority of people or work in their best interests.

Athenian land owners automatically paid taxes and served in the military - it wasn't an option like our military. But it was more of a direct democracy

I’m not saying that we need the same exact model from time of preindustrial slavery. I’m thinking more about Singapore. For example why do we all have anonymous elections where people can’t even control where their vote go? Why in the modern age of internet and computers I can’t even go to the website, type in my login and check where my vote went?

If the privileged rich guy who got elected to further his power mad ends isn't going to get to do it for more than 4 years if he's terrible at it

It may sound good and true but in reality public opinion can be easily changed if you have enough money. The easiest way is by bribing lowlife and underclass voters. Give or promise them enough free food or gratuity and they will elect you right away. Control of the media also works very well if you have money or right connections. For example in Russia in 1996 Boris Yeltsin was reelected as president after his disastrous reforms and failures in early 90. Why? Because he had enough support in media and people can be persuaded to do anything if you control TV.

anyone old enough to fight and die for their country

That's why we need to stop enlisting 16-18 years old kids in military. They can’t even buy their own beer yet.

 

[RX-79G]

It may sound good and true but in reality public opinion can be easily changed if you have enough money. The easiest way is by bribing lowlife and underclass voters.

I'd like to hear your thoughts how you'd like to cut out this corrupt underclass so only the wise and moral are allowed to vote.

 

[Fish Owl]

I'd like to hear your thoughts how you'd like to cut out this corrupt underclass so only the wise and moral are allowed to vote.

It’s not really about morality or intellect. It’s about own private interest. People who own property, have business or career are interested in stability and integrity of their country. On the other hand people who have nothing to lose will vote for anyone without the fear of consequences. They may even elect horrible politicians just to annoy middle class and gloat when they will lose all the incomes and property.

I agree that what I propose is horrible (strip poor people from voting) but the alternative is even worse. The uneducated mob will always elect populists and irresponsible politicians, even dictators. Please mind that I’m a poor person myself with no property, business and pathetic income. I live among people who will vote for anyone with big mouth and crappy talk about making something “great again” and I know where this end.

I agree that Socialism can present alternative (I’m a huge fan of Joan Violet Robinson) but not in my country at present time. Today preaching socialist ideas is equal to treason in here because people do not understand difference between Fabian Socialism and Stalinism.

 

[RX-79G]

It’s not really about morality or intellect. It’s about own private interest. People who own property, have business or career are interested in stability and integrity of their country.

Why do you think rich people have an investment in stability? They are the least affected by instability, and the accumulation of great wealth is de-stabilizing to individual countries. Deregulation and free trade are in the interest of business owners, not the middle class, because in a global economy "trickle down economics" means that the average net worth of the citizens of rich countries (US) moves to industrious poor countries.

Using your intentions rather than criteria, the only people who should be allowed to vote are the middle class, because they are the only ones that will bear the burden of a failing nation. And they are, as more of the people that you think should have a voice are turning into people whose employment and property status makes the "lowlife" in your book.

 

[Fish Owl]

Why do you think rich people have an investment in stability? They are the least affected by instability, and the accumulation of great wealth is de-stabilizing to individual countries.

Very rich people are. Not the middle class.

the only people who should be allowed to vote are the middle class, because they are the only ones that will bear the burden of a failing nation.

My point exactly.

employment and property status makes the "lowlife" in your book.

The reason why I say this is because I have the same background as "lowlife". I'm from ordinary post-Soviet family. And all my life I was interacting with these people. What I say about them is not based on some propaganda or books, it's from my own experience as one of them. If majority of some country are underclass and they have a right to vote - it's a recipe for collapse of economy, civil war and disaster.

 

[Av Demeisen]

@Fish Owl You should be embarrassing yourself with the supremacist nonsense you are spouting. You say you speak from your own live experience, but it is actually limited to the troubled society you grew up in. If you had your say a disabled person like me would be disenfranchised. What you would actually get is what you are seeing in Britain. An unapologetic war on perceived scroungers and the work-shy by the decent, moral 'hardworking' section of society. How's that for a populist nightmare.

 

[Fish Owl]

You should be embarrassing yourself with the supremacist nonsense you are spouting. You say you speak from your own live experience, but it is actually limited to the troubled society you grew up in.

You right about one thing: every person is limited by his upbringing and society he grew up with. And I don’t think my childhood society was “troubled”. I would call it “ordinary” for a modern world we live in. Troubled society is Africa or Middle East. And I bet people from there would laugh about our vision of reality. Because we talk about egalitarian society and democracy while in those countries kids fight over food scraps.

If you had your say a disabled person like me would be disenfranchised.

Do not take my words literally. What I meant is that only people who will bear responsibility and face consequences of their choice must have right to vote. And in modern capitalist society it is the middle class.

And speaking of horrible truths: do you think mentally diseased people should vote?

 

[Windshadow]

What a terrifying notion. From my perspective, anyone old enough to fight and die for their country (join the military) is old enough to have a say in how and by whom the governing decisions are made.

Here in Canada there is talk of reducing the voting age to sixteen in order to increase partipation and engagement.

the whole question of who gets the franchise to vote is worth looking at... I agree old enough to fight should = old enough to vote or drink etc. Your point about engagement of the youth being a reason to drive down that age is understandable... On the other hand raising the age of voting has some points... the problem is that age does not confer wisdom as popular entertainment would have it... some of the worst bigots and despicable people I have ever come across were well past their 30th birthday.
So do we experiment further with this? after all you have to be 35 to be in the US senate I think.
Well one way then to have more mature voters would seem to be the increase of the age at which one can be in the military to say 25 then have that as the voting age... more maturity in voters would seem to be a good thing in general, as would the reduction that the concept of less young army fighters who still subconsciously think they are immortal. Somehow I doubt that the folks that recruit for the forces would think much of the idea.

 

[Fish Owl]

I did some basic research concerning voting age and it turned out that almost everywhere it is 16-18 years. I find it bizarre that person who can’t even go buy beer or cigarettes can vote for president. You are not mature enough to choose your drink or entertainment but you can choose government.

Somehow I doubt that the folks that recruit for the forces would think much of the idea.

When I was preparing to write one of my stories I read a lot about child soldiers in Africa. The methods of training, brainwashing and such. Child soldiers always show maximum brutality and cruelty both on battlefield and with civilians. If we want to have civilized military young-adults clearly need to stay away from it.

 

[Matthew Hughes]

Do you think that could happen in the states?

In short, no. Much different histories, leading to much different social dynamics.

 

[Av Demeisen]

You right about one thing: every person is limited by his upbringing and society he grew up with. And I don’t think my childhood society was “troubled”. I would call it “ordinary” for a modern world we live in. Troubled society is Africa or Middle East. And I bet people from there would laugh about our vision of reality. Because we talk about egalitarian society and democracy while in those countries kids fight over food scraps.



Do not take my words literally. What I meant is that only people who will bear responsibility and face consequences of their choice must have right to vote. And in modern capitalist society it is the middle class.

And speaking of horrible truths: do you think mentally diseased people should vote?

Well, it's your sick supremacist world view. Define mentally diseased. I have an autism spectrum diagnosis. Should I be allowed to vote?

 

[Fish Owl]

Well, it's your sick supremacist world view.

It's actually interesting to hear it from you since you were the one who labeled Trump electorate "knuckle-dragging inbreds and amoral types" (c)

I have an autism spectrum diagnosis. Should I be allowed to vote?

I’m not a doctor and I don’t have the slightest idea. If person is sane enough and mentally stable – of course he can vote. As for disability, we don’t live in medieval times anymore. Today even person without limbs like Nick Vujicic or paralyzed person like Stephen Hawking can be productive and creative member of society. Thank you science and progress. On the other hand I fail to grasp why some lazy healthy and irresponsible loafer who don’t work, don’t serve in army and don’t do anything useful just because he don’t feel like it have same civil rights. If it’s supremacist in your book – I’m okay with that.

 

[Av Demeisen]

It's actually interesting to hear it from you since you were the one who labeled Trump electorate "knuckle-dragging inbreds and amoral types" (c)

If the shoe fits ...

I am glad I voted to keep you lot out of the EU. You most definitely wouldn't fit in.

 

[Fish Owl]

I am glad I voted to keep you lot out of the EU.

“You lot”? So now you are into putting labels on entire nations. Why I’m not surprised?

You most definitely wouldn't fit in.

Sure. Because EU currently overcrowded with refugees as it is. "Wouldn't fit in." is the right way to describe it.

I really think you need to calm down and do not take anything you read on internet forums so personal. I'm almost certain you misunderstood message of my previous posts because of the language barrier.

 

[Av Demeisen]

“You lot”? So now you are into putting labels on entire nations. Why I’m not surprised?


Sure. Because EU currently overcrowded with refugees as it is. "Wouldn't fit in." is the right way to describe it.

Yes, well, you in particular. Goodbye.

 

[Matthew Hughes]

every person is limited by his upbringing and society he grew up with. And I don’t think my childhood society was “troubled”.

Compared to most western societies of the past few decades, I would tend to call a post-Soviet society troubled, at least in the sense that it had suffered a collapse of long-established institutions and mores, and was in the uncomfortable process of growing new ones.

I grew up as part of the underclass (lowlifes, if you will) in Canada of the 1950s and 1960s. It was a conformist society geared to satisfying the wants of the rich and the middle class, the latter having come to include the unionized working class since the end of WWII. The working poor were left out of the golden age.

Student loans, introduced in the mid-1960s made it possible for me to go to university, although not to finish a degree, but I managed to leave the underclass and have an unusual career. I have been poor and hungry, and I have flown in executive jets and drunk single malt scotch in executive suites. Since becoming a wandering housesitter, I have also lived in twelve countries and visited a few more, so I have had a broader experience of life than most.

My take on the world: we have ceased to be citizens of societies and have instead become consumers in an economy. We are conditioned by relentless, powerful marketing techniques to feel instead of to think, to the point where modern adults in the consumer societies don't know the difference, and don't know what it means to be a citizen.

All this has led to a reality star celebrity brand being placed in charge of the world's largest economy and war machine. That may turn out to be the breaking point, if enough intelligent and educated people recognize that this whole consumption/marketing based civilization is heading for the bottom of a rat hole.

My hope, though I do not expect to live to see it, is that we will steer our way back to becoming citizens again, although it will be as members of some new forms of polity that I can't yet imagine. Possibly mass automation and AI, coupled with a guaranteed basic income for all, will form the basis for what will come.

 

[Fish Owl]

Yes, well, you in particular. Goodbye.

I'm sorry if anything I said offended you in any way.

 

[Fish Owl]

All this has led to a reality star celebrity brand being placed in charge of the world's largest economy and war machine. That may turn out to be the breaking point, if enough intelligent and educated people recognize that this whole consumption/marketing based civilization is heading for the bottom of a rat hole.

Sadly, consumerism always wins.
What do you consider as an alternative to modern society?