So how are y'all preparing for the Apocalypse?

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Fighting something just for the sake of it will only get things worse. You must have an alternative before facing your adversary. A different vision of future, different political position, different idea. If elections come to "pick your poison" kind of choice - both sides already failed and it can only end in useless conflict. Do not repeat mistake third world countries made countless times. Riots and coup d’état are not the answer.
 
Fish Owl said:
Fighting something just for the sake of it will only get things worse. You must have an alternative before facing your adversary. A different vision of future, different political position, different idea. If elections come to "pick your poison" kind of choice - both sides already failed and it can only end in useless conflict. Do not repeat mistake third world countries made countless times. Riots and coup d’état are not the answer.
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Well said. Very well said, in fact. I don't recall ever having seen the same general idea put in a better wary.
 
Nechtan said:
Welcome to current Western Democracy. The one our leaders demand Eastern Europe and the Middle East must adopt or else.

"Hey citizens of (insert country). What would you rather have? Herpes or the clap? Gotta choose one!"
:mad::confused::rolleyes:
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What form of government are you recommending? The Arab Spring was not people rising up against representative government.
 
Nechtan said:
Welcome to current Western Democracy.
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It's not Western. It's just any modern Democracy. Europe and USA are better at it because they have middle class. And middle class is the foundation of stability.

RX-79G said:
The Arab Spring was not people rising up
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Sadly, I must say you are mistaken. Arab Spring and Ukraine’s Maidan is the same scenario. And in both cases it is people who revolt against government in a mindless attempt to bring “changes”. They do not have any plan or idea. They just want to overthrow corrupt politicians because they honestly think “it can’t get any worse”. And it actually can and will if you rebel and burning down your own country instead of starting to think, to reason, to learn and to build. People – especially young ones – are not found of negotiating and building. They just one to have enemy to fight with. Of course other countries and politicians will benefit from it and support useless civil wars and conflicts. But it is the people’s fault, not some CIA or KGB agents.

Nechtan said:
I hope someone somewhere does know.
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I would go with ancient Athens or modern Singapore model. Where only adult (and by adult I mean 30, not 16 years) people with education and experience can vote and be elected.
 
Fish Owl said:
Sadly, I must say you are mistaken. Arab Spring and Ukraine’s Maidan is the same scenario. And in both cases it is people who revolt against government in a mindless attempt to bring “changes”.
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What am I mistaken about? I was pointing out that the revolts were reactions to dictatorships, not representative government.

However you want to split the hairs, government is either representative or dictated. Revolts are almost universally against dictatorships of some stripe. So if some version of representative government is a Western imposition, and dictorships are also not welcome, what's the third option?
 
Fish Owl said:
...people who revolt against government in a mindless attempt to bring “changes”. They do not have any plan or idea. They just want to overthrow corrupt politicians...
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In both the French and American Revolutions, the revolutionaries (particularly the French) did not have a comprehensive plan for a new mode of governance. The short-term result was civil war and massive bloodshed. The mid-term result was external war and more bloodshed. The long-term result was the establishments of republics founded on the rule of law and the principles (observed earlier in France than in the US) of liberty, equality, and fraternity.

The long-term result could not have happened without the short-term chaos and misery. Making history is a messy business.
 
RX-79G said:
What am I mistaken about?
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Sorry, I misunderstood your point. It's not necessary dictatorship. Corruption and oligarchy can lead to same results even with elections and freedom of speech.

RX-79G said:
what's the third option?
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Athenian democracy where right to vote is something you need to deserve by proving your dedication to society.
 
RX-79G said:
Revolts are almost universally against dictatorships of some stripe.
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There are some significant opposite examples: the Spanish Civil War, Salazar's overthrow of Portuguese democracy, the establishing of the Shah of Iran's autocracy, the murder of Lumumba and the end of democracy in the Congo, Pinochet's coup in Chile, what seems to be happening now in the Philippines.

Of course, these are not revolts by general populations but by particular interests, usually with a strong military contingent. But even popular uprisings against authoritarian rulers may not involve a majority of the people. In the American Revolution, for example, about one-third of the population were revolutionaries, another third were active counter-revolutionaries (Tories), and the final third were neutral.
 
Fish Owl said:
Sorry, I misunderstood your point. It's not necessary dictatorship. Corruption and oligarchy can lead to same results even with elections and freedom of speech.


Athenian democracy where right to vote is something you need to deserve by proving your dedication to society.
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This is hair spliting. An oligarchy is a group dictatorship. A corrupted democracy becomes an imposed government.

Athenian democracy was "deserved" by being a land owning, non-enslaved male. I was born that way - do I 'deserve' a vote?

If the US was "pushing" some country into democratic reforms, and the country decided to exclude citizens under 25, I don't know if anyone at the state department would be concerned. What generally draws US attention is if you need a penis, the validation of a certain political party or a certain god to 'deserve' a vote.

The idea of "deserving to vote" is one based on imposing a system that measures people based on non-egalitarian criteria. How is that not a recipe to corrupt a democratic process?
 
Matthew Hughes said:
There are some significant opposite examples: the Spanish Civil War, Salazar's overthrow of Portuguese democracy, the establishing of the Shah of Iran's autocracy, the murder of Lumumba and the end of democracy in the Congo, Pinochet's coup in Chile, what seems to be happening now in the Philippines.

Of course, these are not revolts by general populations but by particular interests, usually with a strong military contingent. But even popular uprisings against authoritarian rulers may not involve a majority of the people. In the American Revolution, for example, about one-third of the population were revolutionaries, another third were active counter-revolutionaries (Tories), and the final third were neutral.
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Yeah, you're just confounding coups and take overs with revolutions. Revolutions don't have to be a set percentage of the population to count, but they only become a thing when a large percentage is not being represented.

People can democratically choose dictators, but then it stops being democratic. And revolutions can choose one sort of dictator to replace a previous one, but that just makes the point that the choices are pretty binary.
 
RX-79G said:
An oligarchy is a group dictatorship. A corrupted democracy becomes an imposed government.
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And what country today ruled by other means? Everywhere politicians are just pawns in hand of powerful business, banks, and international corporations. You need a lot of money to be elected. Probably only countries with direct military dictatorship or some unimportant small ones are different.

RX-79G said:
Athenian democracy was "deserved" by being a land owning, non-enslaved male. I was born that way - do I 'deserve' a vote?
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They actually had to serve in army and pay taxes to vote. So it’s not all about heritage.

RX-79G said:
How is that not a recipe to corrupt a democratic process?
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Why bother? As it is democracy is already corrupted enough. You just need to have enough money and influence to buy your way into power. And it's always rich and influential who will win the elections. Not honest idealist without money or connections. Athenian democracy is the same thing but with clear set of rules to prevent complete irresponsible morons from power .
 
Fish Owl said:
And what country today ruled by other means? Everywhere politicians are just pawns in hand of powerful business, banks, and international corporations. You need a lot of money to be elected. Probably only countries with direct military dictatorship or some unimportant small ones are different.

They actually had to serve in army and pay taxes to vote. So it’s not all about heritage.

Why bother? As it is democracy is already corrupted enough. You just need to have enough money and influence to buy your way into power. And it's always rich and influential who will win the elections. Not honest idealist without money or connections. Athenian democracy is the same thing but with clear set of rules to prevent complete irresponsible morons from power .
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If you don't believe that democracy or representative government exists, then there's nothing to talk about.

Athenian land owners automatically paid taxes and served in the military - it wasn't an option like our military. But it was more of a direct democracy because the decisions to make were straightforward enough that they could be discussed and voted on during market day. We have a representative government because that doesn't work outside of a small city-state.


The difference between a representative democracy and a oligarchy is that we get to vote out the people that don't do their job. If the privileged rich guy who got elected to further his power mad ends isn't going to get to do it for more than 4 years if he's terrible at it, which is part of the reason that we "trust" that our representatives will attempt to represent us.
 
Fish Owl said:
And what country today ruled by other means?
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Countries governed by social democratic parties are not ruled by business, banks and international corporations. Because they are democracies, those governments can be replaced by more conservative, business-friendly parties, but after a while the pendulum swings back.

My country, Canada, is a center-left federal state in which the centrist party, the Liberals, routinely borrows (or steals, if you like) policies from the social democratic parties. That's why we have health care, pensions, unemployment insurance, housing assistance and a wide array of government supports for the less advantaged. It is by no means a perfect order, but it is a far cry from the ruthless capitalism of more conservative countries like the US or post-Thatcherite Britain.

We did have a right-wing (in the Canadian context) federal government under Stephen Harper for eight years until 2015. His last five years were the only time he had a majority in the Commons. That's when Canadians got a good look at what he wanted to do with the country and we threw him out.
 
Fish Owl said:
I would go with ancient Athens or modern Singapore model. Where only adult (and by adult I mean 30, not 16 years) people with education and experience can vote and be elected.
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What a terrifying notion. From my perspective, anyone old enough to fight and die for their country (join the military) is old enough to have a say in how and by whom the governing decisions are made.

Here in Canada there is talk of reducing the voting age to sixteen in order to increase partipation and engagement.
 
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